Name: Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate
Uploaded: 2019-12-05T20:00:08.000Z
Description: Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate' from PowerfulJRE on Comedy Buff. Published 2019-12-05. Transcript available.

Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate' from PowerfulJRE on Comedy Buff. Published 2019-12-05. Transcript available.

Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate

all right here we go uh first of all um welcome james i really appreciate you
having me on my
pleasure um and uh welcome again chris uh so this is essentially uh giving you
an opportunity to
refute some of the things that chris has said about your film we should tell
everybody that you
you're the producer of the game changers yeah i'm one of two producers uh i
know you also from of
course from the ultimate fighter yeah ufc and chris this is your what fourth
appearance here
like that fourth or fifth fourth or fifth um did you get a chance to see what
chris had said yeah
i've watched it you watched it okay i've made a bunch of notes excellent let's
start from the
beginning um the beginning of the show the beginning of your film you talked
about the gladiators and
all that stuff and the the fact that you were shocked to find out that they
they had eaten a
vegetarian diet yeah i mean you know that's been misrepresented right so even
before the film came
out people were like oh there's this vegan film coming out it's vegan
propaganda people were judging
the film before they'd seen it right and the vegan sort of community really
pushed it like hey look at
this documentary so there's been things saying they claimed that the gladiators
were vegan right and if
we can just prove they think the whole film is based on this premise that was
just like an inciting
incident for me to start digging into it first of all fabian kent said they
were predominantly vegetarian
and i said they ate mostly plants and that is what i couldn't believe right so
they didn't claim that
they were vegan didn't even claim that they were vegetarian they were just
fueled mostly by plants
you know and people say oh you cherry picked one location it was the only known
gladiator burial site
in the world based on archaeological and anthropological data at the time
at the time where you read the study because there have been other studies well
there's been there's
been some that have been questioned so like there's one in york and there's one
in york at the time
that had a few gladiator skeletons and it was questioned whether that was the
thing but i'm happy to
address every critique but if you wouldn't mind i just want to make sure that
chris ryan's same page
about how um evidence is evaluated sure so chris would you consider yourself a
nutrition expert
um no i would consider myself someone who is adept at reading the literature
and um learning from experts
in nutrition medicine anthropology etc although i do have master's level
training in nutrition
okay so is it fair to say that any one study cannot show what you know the
human race should be eating
is that fair any one study absolutely so basically anytime you show a study if
you say something you
have to give a citation for it right yeah fair to say and then someone can
claim that that's cherry
picked because that you've got to show a study or some studies and then someone
can claim it's
cherry picked right so what we have to do in order to understand nutrition is
look at the totality
of the evidence and i just want to make sure we're on the same page and then we
can address each
critique if that's okay is that okay that is the core of my argument right
exactly so you would
say is it fair to say like there's three main areas so there'd be like preclinical
data which
should either be in animals or in test tubes petri dishes right there'd be
observational data where you
look at people um and see how they're doing and obviously there's the health
user but uh healthy
user bias potential and there's interventional trials right so let's just take
trans fats for
example right you you look in a petri dish at uh endothelial cells and trans
fats and you can see
that it creates uh vascular inflammation in those cells right and then you look
at people who eat
trans fats and they have high levels of inflammation and then you can actually
do
interventional randomized control trials and you can tell that trans fats cause
inflammation
so we basically all agree that trans fats are bad based on all of those data
points is that fair
okay so therefore again if you start any one study people can just someone can
just claim that you're
cherry picking right you can just say cherry everyone can say that i could say
that you're
cherry picking you can say i'm cherry picking not necessarily because there are
meta analyses and
reviews that are built for this purpose to look at the totality of evidence
totally agree if you're
in the film for example pointing to many meta analyses that summarize all the
research that's been done
on a topic then i wouldn't have said that that's cherry picking fair enough i
agree with that okay so
basically in philosophy there's this um it's a logical fallacy called uh appeal
to authority right but in
the real world you know you have to look at experts that are specialists in
their field so if i you know i just
got shoulder surgery not long ago right so i went to a shoulder surgeon i didn't
go to a dentist if i want to
learned about comedy or you know fight announcing i might come and talk to you
right if i want to learn
about acupuncture or understand chemo i might come to chris because you've got
a master's degree in
traditional oriental medicine you're a licensed acupuncturist right so if i
want to learn about that
chris is someone that i might want to go to so what i'm saying is the world
health organization the fao
the american heart association the 2015-2020 dietary guidelines are all
suggesting to eat
predominantly plant-based diets right and they're saying that vegetarian vegan
diets are helpful for
all life stages including for pregnancy uh childbirth uh so through childbirth
uh breastfeeding
adolescents athletes and so on okay that's that that's the general consensus
can i just just finish
okay and so and i've got a bunch of slides if you don't believe anything i've
got a bunch of slides
showing the position papers for all of these uh that's okay go ahead so let's
skip through that so
that's you'd agree that those yes no i wouldn't necessarily agree okay so then
let's go to the
recommendation okay so can we go to slide one those recommendations change over
time no they do change
over time and then i would also say that i'm on a predominantly plant-based
diet well exactly so if
you look so then what are we arguing about if you look at two-thirds of my
plate is plants well this
is this is my point yeah you're being unfair that's really really unfair
because last time
you pointed out that the totality of coverage of the plate is not reflective of
the calories you
said that on yeah but that has nothing to do with what he's saying he's not
talking about calories he's
talking about what is predominantly his diet it's mostly plants you've got to
base it on calories
you can't base it on the the the why would we need to base it on calories if
you're saying that your diet
is predominantly plant-based then either one we're on the same page right
because that's what i'm
talking about no we're not because the the main question here in my mind is
whether there is
evidence that supports being on a 100 plant-based diet with no animal products
versus a diet that includes
a lot of plant foods and some animal foods i thought you were taking the film
which was talking about
plant-based diets so plant-based diets means getting the vast majority of your
calories from plants
and limiting or excluding animal foods but the the film essentially was all
about only eating plants no
okay so there was no recommendation whatsoever about eating animals how animal
products will kill you
dairy products will kill you all kinds of different animal foods no no that
claim was never made see
but there was a connection there was there was not there was an inferred
connection no there was not to
what was the connection the connection cigarettes was that the the way the playbook
that is being used
by the see that's people are conflating like what the hell playbook is the same
the same way they're using
athletes and they're using advertising we never made the claim which i explain
that then but be
clear okay so the playbook that was used by the the uh smoking industry so they
pay for studies right
right and and we know even with food right this has been done with cigarettes
it's been done with drugs it's been done with food research shows that industry-fronted.
studies of four to time four to eight times more likely to have a conclusion in
their favor for
their product so this is what the smoking industry did then they got doctors to
say that smoking wasn't
bad and then they got athletes to show like hey smoking is good that was the
parallel that we drew we never
drew the the parallel that was drawn in what the hell so i want to make that
really clear there was no and
and i've seen this in in articles saying you know they connected me we didn't
do that like if you watch the film we never said did you
why did you have that in there though if you're not saying because they're
using the same playbook if you're not saying that meat causes cancer you're
saying
they're using the same specific claims that chicken eating chicken and fish
causes cancer
eating dairy causes cancer there were quotes from doctors vegan doctors no they're
not vegan
that's the other misrepresentation so can i just go back can we just finish the
evaluating evidence
and then get to each point because i'm happy to have every critique so
basically the consensus and
you're saying they're changing over time they are changing because as we get
better at science
they're becoming more the recommendation is becoming more plant-based despite
industry influence from studies and marketing and people being paid off right
industry influence goes both ways the sugar industry in the 60s i agree
exposé pointing the finger at fat
as the culprit no i don't think that's the culprit so that that's a straw man
argument
no but he's not he's not saying you are saying that no no i'm saying the
industry is yeah i agree
the sugar industry is terrible and i would agree that but can i just can we
just finish the evaluating evidence
but the thing about this section of the film was you were making some sort of a
correlation
between cigarettes and the way that it was marketed the way they're marketed
and the way and then the way meat is marketed correct so it's the same paper it's
the same
company's exponent but why would you do you would never do that about like
carrots or kale or something
they're predominantly healthy because they didn't because they didn't do it but
if you're saying
that you you're connecting the two things you're connecting something that
clearly causes cancer
cigarettes and these studies that were made to show people that it didn't they
were paid off these
studies were fake they were they were essentially cherry-picked fake studies
that were financed by
the tobacco industry correct in order to get people to buy more cigarettes you're
making this same
sort of crime about meat correct which means you think that meat is bad i do
okay that's but that's
where we're that's where we're no we can disagree about that but i'm almost
finished with the
evaluating evidence so so basically what we did when we expert interviewed the
experts is we chose
leading experts in their individual fields with collectively with thousands of
articles in the
peer-reviewed literature right so and this is one of the bummers about the uh
making a documentary
it's like you put the lower third on people don't get to read it so we had the
chair of nutrition
at harvard the president american college of cardiology the lead delegate of urology
for the american
medical association the chair of anthropology at harvard the director of energy
environment and
resources at chatton chatton house really respected so you're talking about
vegan doctors i saw some of
them some of them involved in hunting some of them involved in animal testing
um i saw one of them
eating a ch