Name: Joe Rogan Experience #2322 - Rebecca Lemov
Uploaded: 2025-05-15T17:01:07.000Z
Description: Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Joe Rogan Experience #2322 - Rebecca Lemov' from PowerfulJRE on Comedy Buff. Published 2025-05-15. Transcript available.

Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Joe Rogan Experience #2322 - Rebecca Lemov' from PowerfulJRE on Comedy Buff. Published 2025-05-15. Transcript available.

Joe Rogan Experience #2322 - Rebecca Lemov

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
All right, hello, Rebecca.
Very nice to meet you.
Hi, Joe.
Very nice to meet you, too.
So, first of all, what got you interested in mind control?
Well, so this is a question I've been asking myself just because I find myself
after two and a half decades of having this topic that initially seemed pretty
niche and unusual and not many people were interested or many people were
skeptical about it, but I thought it seemed like it embodied some of the more
extreme, if you could look at the way people are shaped by their environments
and by their, you know, what parts of your life are determined by you
and what parts are determined by outside forces, that mind control would be a
perfect area to investigate that because it's so extreme, especially if you
looked at particular cases.
So I, because I had done my dissertation at UC Berkeley on the history of
behavioral engineering and how, you know, these kind of models for creating a
society of control and encouragement in various ways, like a behaviorist kind
of
dream.
And it seemed like the next step was to, to look at something like brainwashing
or mind
control.
When you first started studying it, was it a less public sort of a curiosity?
Because now a lot of people are very much interested.
I blame the internet mostly.
I probably had a lot to do with it too.
You and the internet.
A lot of people on the internet are, you know, because over time, you know,
people have gotten
to know about MKUltra and a bunch of different, different programs that the,
that our own United
States government was involved in, where they were working on mind control.
But what, like, initially, what drew you to it?
Well, I guess I always have been drawn to topics that seemed unusual, maybe for
professor to be
looking into.
And people, I mean, at the time, if you look at a Google Ngram for the word
mind
control or brainwashing, they were very low, you know, around the turn of the
century or
the 1990s, after their kind of, there was a peak of interest in the 70s, and it
just really
fallen off.
But I guess I was interested because it just seems so unusual.
And like, maybe there was something there that people hadn't really thought
about.
And at the time, these documents weren't readily available.
And like you say, people weren't really looking into it.
So I just thought it seemed like a rich area for research.
And I'm also interested in connecting my person.
I've always been interested in connecting my personal, I guess, my goals for
life with
what I research.
So I thought it's almost like a philosophical and existential question of how
much we're
controlled or how much we might be controlled.
And it seemed important to look at some of the more extreme cases, if you could.
Yeah, I think that that's an interesting aspect of it.
Like, how much are we controlled?
And how arrogant are we to think that we're not controlled?
Or how arrogant are we to think that that wouldn't work on me?
Yeah, I think that that's embedded in our, you know, in the messages we receive
all the
time, that freedom is something kind of effortless, that we're just granted,
and that autonomy is
just the natural state.
But actually, we're so much more malleable than we think.
And these things, if you look around yourself, or if you observe yourself, you'll
often see
this to be true.
That's what also drew me to anthropology, is just the idea, like, if I was born
in another
place at another time, I would be another person.
Or how much of me would be transferable?
Right.
That's why I first started studying anthropology, like, how much are we shaped
by things that
we don't necessarily choose, or are maybe accidental, or genetic, or various
factors.
But yeah, but I think we're told that that freedom of freedom of choice or our
autonomy is fairly
straightforward.
And all you have to do is exert your will.
Yeah, but clearly, we're influenced heavily by our environment.
Culturally, I mean, accents, just cultural traditions, behavior patterns.
It begs the questions, like, what are you?
And what is the shell that you wear on the outside?
You know, like a hermit crab.
Like, what do you carry around with you?
And what, at the core of it, what are you?
Yeah, that was, I mean, that is the oldest question of Socrates, who am I?
Or, you know, just the question.
It's the, it's a deep question, and it's also kind of like a practical question.
So, I thought, if you could look at it more in, in actual examples, that would
be interesting.
And I also, I guess I was drawn to the topic.
Maybe, yeah, maybe because other people weren't studying it, or also because of
experiences
in my life.
Just seemingly small things.
Like, one day, I remember when I was in graduate school, I was walking down the
street, and
I said, we passed a small dog.
And I said, I really, I really hate small dogs.
Like, and I, I realized as I said it, that it wasn't true, but I just, like, I
love, I actually
really like them.
What's wrong with small dogs?
But I had absorbed this opinion, some, from somewhere, that, like, a person
that, such
as I was aspiring to be, you know, only liked, you know, big dogs or something
like that.
But just noticing in yourself the way you soak up opinions, and you're shaped
by, you know,
even, you know, even seemingly trivial things, and then also on a more profound
level, you
can see that happening.
Made me wonder, like, what could you learn from looking at these cases where
people really
seem to have been brainwashed, you know, in history, or radically reshaped,
perhaps?
And then there's brainwashing yourself.
Because if you say, I hate small dogs, now you have to kind of defend it.
And even if you say, God, it's not even true, but there's got to be reasons to
hate small
dogs.
I don't want to come off as a moron who just says things.
There are other people who feel the same.
Yeah.
It turns out, yeah, I mean, either you end up doubling down on that opinion,
because
you don't want to feel silly to yourself.
I mean, I think sometimes we're just a series of adopted opinions that we then
adhere to.
And I guess being in graduate school also made me feel that way, because you're
rapidly learning
and absorbing a new vocabulary, learning things you should say, learning things
you shouldn't
say, ways you should express yourself in ways you shouldn't.
That seemed very, like, a deeply shaping process.
And I was interested in, how did social sciences, like, was there a science of
this process of
shaping, or they sometimes called it canalizing, or making, you know, a canal
of behavior so
that people would end up wanting to do what it was that socially necessary for
them to do?
Well, universities are a great place for that, right?
Because you get away from your parents for the first time, who have indoctrinated
you into
their cult, like, you're born in the cult of your parents, and then you leave,
and you're
like, let me get away from these crazy people, and now I'm going to become a
whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, now I'm going to figure out which group most aligns with my ideas,
and join them,
and rebel, and fight against the machine, and become a part of a new cult.
Exactly.
Wear something different, or suddenly I don't like certain kinds of dogs, or I
wear a certain
thing, or, you know, you have an interruption in the fabric of your extensive
conditioning,
and that is an, it's also an opportunity, you know, it's not a nefarious thing,
necessarily,
but it can take that, just that truth about people.
I think it can be nefarious for some people, unfortunately, but I think for a
lot of people,
just considering new ways to think about things is probably valuable, it's
probably a good thing
to have the opportunity to reconsider the way that you've sort of, like, canaled
the grooves
that have been deeply carved into your personality, where you automatically go
toward certain things,
or think about certain things.
Yeah.
I always think just an interruption is often good.
Oh, yeah.
In your patterning.
Yeah, that's why I think moving is really good.
Or traveling.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
A bunch of resets.
I've read that you have had a steady meditation practice.
I've read it was like two hours a day for 25 years.
Yeah.
That's a lot of time to be meditating.
Yeah.
It really helped me so much when I learned to meditate that I never wanted to
miss an hour,
so I never missed an hour, except when I was giving birth to my daughter, which
was its own
thing.
But that's when I'm like...
You get a break for the meditation for that.
You get a hall pass.
Yeah.
I just...
And it's not like anyone made me or I necessarily thought I would do that.
It's just that it's something that gave me a lot of perspective and peace, and
I guess
I just didn't want to go back.
Mm-hmm.
So I do think it informs how I do research or I try to bring what I learned in
meditation
into my... into what I do.
Do you do an hour in the morning and an hour at night?
Yeah.
Wow.
And for a year, I think a couple of times I've tried adding more in the morning,
so two
hours or so in the morning and an hour in the evening or something, which has
an effect,
but it's hard to... it's hard to make room in your life sometimes.
Oh, for sure.
But it does...
You can sleep a little bit less.
Yeah?
Well, you don't want to make yourself sleep less, but sometimes it just does
reduce the amount
you need.
Just by meditating?
Really?
That's what I found.
Interesting.
How much sleep do you need?
I used to sleep like eight and a half hours, and then now I sleep about seven
or six and
a half, or if I'm really tired, I might sleep a little extra, but I ended up
just...
Yeah, so it's so much changed my life that I just, I move things around so I
could always
do it, so... and try to be adaptable.
Mm.
So I just mostly get up at a regular meditation time, which is like 4:30.
What kind of meditation?
I do Vipassana, which is a form of Buddhist meditation.
Pretty... it's just a form of observation, or someone once described it as
practice and
seeing things as they are.
So you try to just... it's not trying to, you know, apply a lens over something
or chanting.
It's just a very... it's a way of... it's cultivating observation of the subtle
body, ultimately,
or just what is in front of you.
And so you just sit in peace and think?
Well, it's not always peaceful.
There is sometimes... yeah, but...
I mean, peace as far as like you're not bouncing around.
You're... yeah, sometimes I'm sitting, sometimes I'm... I've also had... you
know, I've adapted
so when my daughter was little, sometimes I'd hold her, be putting her to sleep
or something.
But mostly, I'm just sitting there and... with eyes closed, and then you... you
kind of move,
you observe just how you're... how you are. And the more you practice it, the
more you can
kind of go into it more deeply, quickly.
I would think that that would be a good protection from unwanted mind control,
too.
Yeah.
Because at least you could kind of have an assessment, do an audit of your
thoughts,
and sit back and go, "How much of the shit I believe is because of X or because
of Y?"
Yeah, it's like a built-in reflection.
Mm-hmm.
So, at the end of the day, I have to say I'm often less still or peaceful.
My mind's jumping around, and I'm like processing.
Maybe it's even what I watched or was exposed to, and it's sort of a processing
experience.
And sometimes you're super distracted, but you can also notice that fact.
So it just builds in, yeah, an opportunity for some distance, which then you
can also try to bring into your life, too.
Yeah.
Were you, when you were young, had you ever been exposed to any cults or
anything like that?
Hmm, that's a good question.
Not when I was really young.
And how old were you when you were first exposed to cults?
In fact, I think, so, that's a good question.
I mean, my family is sort of cult-averse, I would say.
My father, I think they 