Name: Norm Macdonald Interviews Jack Duvall - Dennis Miller Show (2008) Nonviolence and Ayatollahs
Uploaded: 2019-10-09T16:48:16.000Z
Description: Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Norm Macdonald Interviews Jack Duvall - Dennis Miller Show (2008) Nonviolence and Ayatollahs' from Happy the Dog on Comedy Buff. Published 2019-10-09. Transcript available.

Watch the stand-up comedy video 'Norm Macdonald Interviews Jack Duvall - Dennis Miller Show (2008) Nonviolence and Ayatollahs' from Happy the Dog on Comedy Buff. Published 2019-10-09. Transcript available.

So now we've got a guest, which is cool. Jack Duvall. He's David Duvall's
brother. Do you know the golfer?
Is that true?
No.
But that would be cool, right?
Yeah.
He almost won the US Open. He's the president of the International Center on
Nonviolent Conflict. That's cool. What's that mean?
It means people power.
Yeah?
When people rise up and demand their rights.
Wait, is that what they did in that movie Gandhi? Which was, by the way, based
on a true story I heard?
In fact, it happened, yeah.
Yeah. But don't a lot of people die doing that?
Well, that's because the British began to shoot Indians.
Yeah, right. Well, won't that happen if your part is nonviolent?
Ah, but that's where it gets interesting. If you've got a great strategy and
you know how to defuse repression or ways of doing that tactically, then...
It doesn't work one-on-one, right?
Like, let's say me, let's say a guy comes at me with a gun. Me being nonviolent,
that would not work, ever.
No, I mean, you know, I'm not a pacifist. I think everybody has the right to
self-defense.
It's the only thing you can do to defend yourself and your family, absolutely.
But you need a lot of people. So this could happen in Iran, right?
You don't necessarily need lots and lots of people, because here's the deal.
If I were in a room with, like, maybe 25 or 50 people, and I was threatening
them with a gun, and I said,
OK, I want you to do the following things, otherwise I'm going to shoot you,
they'd have a choice.
They could say, OK, we'll do those things. We don't want you to shoot us.
Or, if I were convinced that none of them were going to do the things that I
wanted them to do,
even if I were threatening them with a gun, then the threat of violence wouldn't
have any power,
because it's always a transaction.
Right, but what about just the fun of shooting someone? Like, a lot of these
people are sadists.
That's another story, yes, absolutely. And that's what these movements do, like
in Iran.
They can, if their tactics are strategic, what they can do is to essentially
separate that element
from within the military and the police forces, which are interested, like the
besiegi in Iran,
and enjoy beating people up from regular army people who see themselves as
defenders of the public order
and the nation's honor and all the rest of that stuff.
Hey, can you tell me about Iran, because I don't understand anything about it,
because I don't know anything except what I see on TV?
Well, we had a really interesting and not unique set of circumstances
in which the Iranian regime basically stole an election.
No, no, but I mean beforehand.
Like, remember when the students took over the embassy and all that with the
hostages?
That's another story. That was a violent revolt.
That was actually a stunt that was pulled by an extreme faction of the Islamic
Revolution.
So they weren't young students, right? They weren't educated?
No, that was inspired.
Why are there educated students in Iran? Why would that old guy let that happen?
Well, the old guy, you see, that was already after the Islamic Revolution had
succeeded.
So the power that sat there was the new leaders of the Islamic Revolution.
Right.
And so that was designed, in fact, to help.
It was for internal domestic politics to enable more power to accrue to the
extreme part of the regime.
And essentially that's the same thing that we saw earlier this month in Tehran.
But did they have, like, did they have satellites during the first, that Khomeini
guy?
No, they didn't.
But, you know, Khomeini used the technology of the day to get in power, which
was audiotapes.
They mass-produced audiotapes of his speeches.
He was a very charismatic speaker.
And hundreds of thousands of those were infiltrated throughout Iran.
And many believed that, you know, he was a liberator from the Shah.
But what I'm asking is, like, those guys, those ayatollahs, because they're so
serious about what they believe and stuff,
why would they allow any Western communication to enter the country?
Why wouldn't they just be a closed country?
Hey, it's the way you do business these days.
They don't have a choice.
If they don't allow digital media in, they can't function in the real world.
They can't make a profit as a regime.
So it is a tradeoff for them.
And those who felt that this election had been stolen and poured into the
streets used that same digital media,
which was then cranked down by the regime in order to help snuff out the
protests.
And that phase was successful.
But they have to go back to allowing full use, because otherwise, as I said,
they can't function in the world economy.
The new guy, Cam Aeney, which sounds suspiciously like home Aeney to me,
plus he has a long white beard that looks exactly alike.
But wasn't the first guy, like, real famous, and then this guy was kind of hid
in the background
and pretended that other guy was powerful?
Yes, yes, Norm, exactly.
In fact, this guy was a controversial pick 20 years ago to be the supreme
leader,
because he wasn't a famous cleric.
He wasn't regarded as spiritually advanced.
And it was kind of a political power play that put him into the seat.
What are those guys' powers, those clerics, those moolahs?
Can they talk to God and stuff?
They certainly think they do.
But, you know, it's a...
Hey, I'm not going to argue with them.
No, not on that.
That's for sure.
We can argue with them about the way they're governing their country,
depriving people of their rights.
But their beliefs I strongly agree with.
Pardon me?
Their beliefs I strongly agree with.
I just want them all to know that.
Something there's no point being controversial about.
I found that.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's...
I mean, anything that is supremely serious,
as the supreme leader and his machinations are,
we have to find some basis to laugh a little bit about it.
But when that guy stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square,
was he an important person?
Or was he...
Symbolically, but not strategically.
He did something, though?
Something changed within China since he did that?
You know, I mean, I don't think so at the time,
but I think that what that...
That taught that regime to invent better ways of keeping control,
keeping the lid on.
And it also taught the regime that there needed to be a loosening in some
direction
for the new generations.
And so the economic loosening and the turn to free market policies
did help to accommodate the rising energies of the next generation.
But the Chinese made a strong point that one guy standing there, man,
that ain't nothing if you've got a tank.
But we've got to go, and then we'll talk to you in a little bit.
Right, Christian?
Jack, if you have the time, we'd like to hold you through the break,
is what Norman is saying.
Okay, thanks.
I have no idea.
You notice I can't add in one thing?
Why?
All I'm doing is sitting here thinking,
what would Dennis ask?
What would Dennis's point be?
What would his view be?
What would his position be?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I forgot to do that.
Right now?
Yeah, see, they couldn't hear what I was saying.
I was trying to be off the air.
So that's Norm MacDonald, and this is The Dennis Miller Show.
Give us a call at 866-99-DENIS.
That's 866-99-DENIS.
We're joined now by Jack DuVal,
who is president of the International Scene Center
on Nonviolent Conflict.
Welcome to the show.
Hey, so he's back.
So nonviolence, so tell us about that,
because that's a pretty fascinating thing.
Well, you know, when it's used by people
that get into the streets, as in Iran,
it works if three things happen.
If people mobilize in large numbers
in ways that really impress the rest of the country
as representing everyone's grievances,
in other words, if there's unity to take this action.
Secondly, if they put real pressure
on the institutions of the state
and drive up the cost of oppression,
and finally...
What is the cost of repression now?
Well, I mean, it's the cost of...
You can't put a number on it.
Consider this.
If you have a million people
in the streets for 20 days,
which is effectively what the Ukrainians did
in the so-called Orange Revolution
five years ago,
if you do that,
then everybody's working overtime,
the cost of doing that to the state goes up,
all these authoritarian regimes
are incompetently managed.
That pressure is extreme.
And then people within the security forces
begin to say,
hey, wait a minute,
this is not what I signed up for.
Is this sustainable?
Who's going to win this thing?
And then they begin to think,
hmm, maybe I shouldn't...
You know, if I'm beating somebody up,
maybe that means that they'll know
that I did that when the new group takes power.
And you see that over and over again.
If the new group takes power,
if the new group takes power,
so the nonviolent conflict is a political...
It's about power.
Yes, it is about power.
One person's idea.
So that person would be whoever.
Ayatollah Khomeini would have been that person.
Well, that person is going to be somebody
who the people perceive
as representing their grievances
because that's the only way
you can mobilize them.
In Iran, it wouldn't be
this other character, would it?
Well, the thing about Mousavi
was that he was a safe choice
because he was within the...
He said he abided by it,
would abide by the Islamic State.
He was a moderate.
He was a reformist.
So a lot of people
who wanted sort of a soft change
could identify with him.
Is there anybody in Iran now
that's like Yeltsin,
just a crazy drunk
that'll get up and say anything
and the people will get behind him?
Ahmadinejad is a dogmatist, you know?
Yeah.
He's...
And he's not a classic authority.
This is a clique.
There's been a coup.
And the extreme form
of the Shiite Islamists in Iran
have essentially
taken complete control of the state.
That's the fundamental political reality
of what's occurring.
And that is scary.
But is it scary
if you do nonviolent confrontation
and then a guy...
What if a guy beheads you?
Do you at some point,
like, struggle back?
Hey, sometimes that can work for you
because the more outrageous
the repression,
the more angry people become.
And then there's a fire next time.
Right.
So you've got to be able
to put your life on...
It's almost like suicide bombings
except it's actual suicide,
not homicide.
In a sense,
certainly political suicide.
If a regime is too violent,
then it really ends up,
you know,
busting its bank because...
Remember that old dude
in the newspaper
that set himself on fire?
You mean back in the Vietnam War days?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I certainly do.
Would that guy be the king
of all nonviolent protesters
that he had reached this point
where he could...
No, because not everybody
will do that.
And generally,
the most effective nonviolent action
is one that inspires imitation.
I see a very few people.
The other people
want to do the same thing.
Did you say immolation?
Imitation.
Oh, imitation.
I thought you said immolation.
But Todd has a question for you.
Well, now I'm wondering
if it's a stupid question.
It is a stupid question.
It's yours.
Well, you said off the air
it was okay.
So did the producer.
No, what about the 9-11 situation
like when they were up in the air?
There's nothing nonviolent
you can do there
to stop that, right?
That's right.
Another situation
of what I would call...
Because there's not mass people.
One of the three things you need.
Well, there's 300.
That's not mass, right?
Versus...
Jack, am I right?
You could...
Well, you know,
in a technical sense,
I mean,
the power of the people
in the airplane
could overwhelm
a small-armed...
And by the way,
just let me interject real quickly.
I'm not implying
that they should have done anything.
I'm just trying to understand
what you're saying.
So asking that question...
I'm saying it's a shame
that David Duvall
only lost by one stroke.
And I think Jack's still feeling it.
Actually, usually I'm...
Everybody asks me,
well, do you know Robert Duvall?
Oh, Robert Duvall, yeah.
He's the guy.
Actually, he had a brother
whose name was Jack, too,
and that guy I did know.
Oh, really?
So you knew Robert Duvall's brother,
Jack Duvall,
because you go to a convention
of guys named Jack Duvall?
I actually once Googled myself
and for the name...
Watch your mouth.
And I found out there were
44 Jack Duvalls
in the United States.
Oh, yeah, it's humbling.
Yeah, definitely, you know?
Yeah.
How many Norm Macdawn?
Well, you know when you YouTube
and you go, like,
hey, man,
I'll listen to a James Brown song,
and instead it's a guy
in his basement
doing James Brown?
Right.
You're like,
I didn't want this.
Why is that number one?
Although those music videos
are great,
sometimes there's an unknown
and it's amazing
what they're capable of.
Hey, Robert Duvall
is an unknown
in our next guest,
Billy Joe Shaver's video.
You know Billy Joe?
I remember Billy Joe.
Yeah, well, he does a...
What's the matter
with the clothes I'm wearing?
What?
Billy Joe, sure.
No, that's Billy Joe,
Billy Joe Shaver.
Acting stupid.
So anyways,
he was up for Gospel Album
of the Year
and he has Robert Duvall
as a walk-on.
But Jack, thanks, man.
You taught me a lot
about Iran
and I bet a lot
of dumb people
in the audience
that are as dumb as I am
learned a lot of stuff, too.
You can't be afraid to ask
because other people
are thinking the same thing.
Oh, it was a pleasure.
Appreciate it.
Thanks, Jack.
You're a smart guy.
Hey, listen,
is Jack still there?
Well, he cut them off.
I had one question for him.
Well, I'll answer it.
I was going to say,
what is the guy
like me?
We're wrapping it up.
We're wrapping it up.
We'll be back on the Dennis Miller Show.

Norm Macdonald Interviews Jack Duvall - Dennis Miller Show (2008) Nonviolence and Ayatollahs

So now we've got a guest, which is cool. Jack Duvall. He's David Duvall's
brother. Do you know the golfer?
Is that true?
No.
But that would be cool, right?
Yeah.
He almost won the US Open. He's the president of the International Center on
Nonviolent Conflict. That's cool. What's that mean?
It means people power.
Yeah?
When people rise up and demand their rights.
Wait, is that what they did in that movie Gandhi? Which was, by the way, based
on a true story I heard?
In fact, it happened, yeah.
Yeah. But don't a lot of people die doing that?
Well, that's because the British began to shoot Indians.
Yeah, right. Well, won't that happen if your part is nonviolent?
Ah, but that's where it gets interesting. If you've got a great strategy and
you know how to defuse repression or ways of doing that tactically, then...
It doesn't work one-on-one, right?
Like, let's say me, let's say a guy comes at me with a gun. Me being nonviolent,
that would not work, ever.
No, I mean, you know, I'm not a pacifist. I think everybody has the right to
self-defense.
It's the only thing you can do to defend yourself and your family, absolutely.
But you need a lot of people. So this could happen in Iran, right?
You don't necessarily need lots and lots of people, because here's the deal.
If I were in a room with, like, maybe 25 or 50 people, and I was threatening
them with a gun, and I said,
OK, I want you to do the following things, otherwise I'm going to shoot you,
they'd have a choice.
They could say, OK, we'll do those things. We don't want you to shoot us.
Or, if I were convinced that none of them were going to do the things that I
wanted them to do,
even if I were threatening them with a gun, then the threat of violence wouldn't
have any power,
because it's always a transaction.
Right, but what about just the fun of shooting someone? Like, a lot of these
people are sadists.
That's another story, yes, absolutely. And that's what these movements do, like
in Iran.
They can, if their tactics are strategic, what they can do is to essentially
separate that element
from within the military and the police forces, which are interested, like the
besiegi in Iran,
and enjoy beating people up from regular army people who see themselves as
defenders of the public order
and the nation's honor and all the rest of that stuff.
Hey, can you tell me about Iran, because I don't understand anything about it,
because I don't know anything except what I see on TV?
Well, we had a really interesting and not unique set of circumstances
in which the Iranian regime basically stole an election.
No, no, but I mean beforehand.
Like, remember when the students took over the embassy and all that with the
hostages?
That's another story. That was a violent revolt.
That was actually a stunt that was pulled by an extreme faction of the Islamic
Revolution.
So they weren't young students, right? They weren't educated?
No, that was inspired.
Why are there educated students in Iran? Why would that old guy let that happen?
Well, the old guy, you see, that was already after the Islamic Revolution had
succeeded.
So the power that sat there was the new leaders of the Islamic Revolution.
Right.
And so that was designed, in fact, to help.
It was for internal domestic politics to enable more power to accrue to the
extreme part of the regime.
And essentially that's the same thing that we saw earlier this month in Tehran.
But did they have, like, did they have satellites during the first, that Khomeini
guy?
No, they didn't.
But, you know, Khomeini used the technology of the day to get in power, which
was audiotapes.
They mass-produced audiotapes of his speeches.
He was a very charismatic speaker.
And hundreds of thousands of those were infiltrated throughout Iran.
And many believed that, you know, he was a liberator from the Shah.
But what I'm asking is, like, those guys, those ayatollahs, because they're so
serious about what they believe and stuff,
why would they allow any Western communication to enter the country?
Why wouldn't they just be a closed country?
Hey, it's the way you do business these days.
They don't have a choice.
If they don't allow digital media in, they can't function in the real world.
They can't make a profit as a regime.
So it is a tradeoff for them.
And those who felt that this election had been stolen and poured into the
streets used that same digital media,
which was then cranked down by the regime in order to help snuff out the
protests.
And that phase was successful.
But they have to go back to allowing full use, because otherwise, as I said,
they can't function in the world economy.
The new guy, Cam Aeney, which sounds suspiciously like home Aeney to me,
plus he has a long white beard that looks exactly alike.
But wasn't the first guy, like, real famous, and then this guy was kind of hid
in the background
and pretended that other guy was powerful?
Yes, yes, Norm, exactly.
In fact, this guy was a controversial pick 20 years ago to be the supreme
leader,
because he wasn't a famous cleric.
He wasn't regarded as spiritually advanced.
And it was kind of a political power play that put him into the seat.
What are those guys' powers, those clerics, those moolahs?
Can they talk to God and stuff?
They certainly think they do.
But, you know, it's a...
Hey, I'm not going to argue with them.
No, not on that.
That's for sure.
We can argue with them about the way they're governing their country,
depriving people of their rights.
But their beliefs I strongly agree with.
Pardon me?
Their beliefs I strongly agree with.
I just want them all to know that.
Something there's no point being controversial about.
I found that.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's...
I mean, anything that is supremely serious,
as the supreme leader and his machinations are,
we have to find some basis to laugh a little bit about it.
But when that guy stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square,
was he an important person?
Or was he...
Symbolically, but not strategically.
He did something, though?
Something changed within China since he did that?
You know, I mean, I don't think so at the time,
but I think that what that...
That taught that regime to invent better ways of keeping control,
keeping the lid on.
And it also taught the regime that there needed to be a loosening in some
direction
for the new generations.
And so the economic loosening and the turn to free market policies
did help to accommodate the rising energies of the next generation.
But the Chinese made a strong point that one guy standing there, man,
that ain't nothing if you've got a tank.
But we've got to go, and then we'll talk to you in a little bit.
Right, Christian?
Jack, if you have the time, we'd like to hold you through the break,
is what Norman is saying.
Okay, thanks.
I have no idea.
You notice I can't add in one thing?
Why?
All I'm doing is sitting here thinking,
what would Dennis ask?
What would Dennis's point be?
What would his view be?
What would his position be?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I forgot to do that.
Right now?
Yeah, see, they couldn't hear what I was saying.
I was trying to be off the air.
So that's Norm MacDonald, and this is The Dennis Miller Show.
Give us a call at 866-99-DENIS.
That's 866-99-DENIS.
We're joined now by Jack DuVal,
who is president of the International Scene Center
on Nonviolent Conflict.
Welcome to the show.
Hey, so he's back.
So nonviolence, so tell us about that,
because that's a pretty fascinating thing.
Well, you know, when it's used by people
that get into the streets, as in Iran,
it works if three things happen.
If people mobilize in large numbers
in ways that really impress the rest of the country
as representing everyone's grievances,
in other words, if there's unity to take this action.
Secondly, if they put real pressure
on the institutions of the state
and drive up the cost of oppression,
and finally...
What is the cost of repression now?
Well, I mean, it's the cost of...
You can't put a number on it.
Consider this.
If you have a million people
in the streets for 20 days,
which is effectively what the Ukrainians did
in the so-called Orange Revolution
five years ago,
if you do that,
then everybody's working overtime,
the cost of doing that to the state goes up,
all these authoritarian regimes
are incompetently managed.
That pressure is extreme.
And then people within the security forces
begin to say,
hey, wait a minute,
this is not what I signed up for.
Is this sustainable?
Who's going to win this thing?
And then they begin to think,
hmm, maybe I shouldn't...
You know, if I'm beating somebody up,
maybe that means that they'll know
that I did that when the new group takes power.
And you see that over and over again.
If the new group takes power,
if the new group takes power,
so the nonviolent conflict is a political...
It's about power.
Yes, it is about power.
One person's idea.
So that person would be whoever.
Ayatollah Khomeini would have been that person.
Well, that person is going to be somebody
who the people perceive
as representing their grievances
because that's the only way
you can mobilize them.
In Iran, it wouldn't be
this other character, would it?
Well, the thing about Mousavi
was that he was a safe choice
because he was within the...
He said he abided by it,
would abide by the Islamic State.
He was a moderate.
He was a reformist.
So a lot of people
who wanted sort of a soft change
could identify with him.
Is there anybody in Iran now
that's like Yeltsin,
just a crazy drunk
that'll get up and say anything
and the people will get behind him?
Ahmadinejad is a dogmatist, you know?
Yeah.
He's...
And he's not a classic authority.
This is a clique.
There's been a coup.
And the extreme form
of the Shiite Islamists in Iran
have essentially
taken complete control of the state.
That's the fundamental political reality
of what's occurring.
And that is scary.
But is it scary
if you do nonviolent confrontation
and then a guy...
What if a guy beheads you?
Do you at some point,
like, struggle back?
Hey, sometimes that can work for you
because the more outrageous
the repression,
the more angry people become.
And then there's a fire next time.
Right.
So you've got to be able
to put your life on...
It's almost like suicide bombings
except it's actual suicide,
not homicide.
In a sense,
certainly political suicide.
If a regime is too violent,
then it really ends up,
you know,
busting its bank because...
Remember that old dude
in the newspaper
that set himself on fire?
You mean back in the Vietnam War days?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I certainly do.
Would that guy be the king
of all nonviolent protesters
that he had reached this point
where he could...
No, because not everybody
will do that.
And generally,
the most effective nonviolent action
is one that inspires imitation.
I see a very few people.
The other people
want to do the same thing.
Did you say immolation?
Imitation.
Oh, imitation.
I thought you said immolation.
But Todd has a question for you.
Well, now I'm wondering
if it's a stupid question.
It is a stupid question.
It's yours.
Well, you said off the air
it was okay.
So did the producer.
No, what about the 9-11 situation
like when they were up in the air?
There's nothing nonviolent
you can do there
to stop that, right?
That's right.
Another situation
of what I would call...
Because there's not mass people.
One of the three things you need.
Well, there's 300.
That's not mass, right?
Versus...
Jack, am I right?
You could...
Well, you know,
in a technical sense,
I mean,
the power of the people
in the airplane
could overwhelm
a small-armed...
And by the way,
just let me interject real quickly.
I'm not implying
that they should have done anything.
I'm just trying to understand
what you're saying.
So asking that question...
I'm saying it's a shame
that David Duvall
only lost by one stroke.
And I think Jack's still feeling it.
Actually, usually I'm...
Everybody asks me,
well, do you know Robert Duvall?
Oh, Robert Duvall, yeah.
He's the guy.
Actually, he had a brother
wh